What are legitimate marks of the Church?

I had an an interesting exchange about the role of the church.  Historically there are a central set of marks of the church (Preaching, Sacraments, Discipline).  But I would argue there is a wider role that all churches play do play.  In thinking about racial reconciliation in particular (or Biblical Diversity if you prefer) it seems to me that we must broaden the discussion from "narrow systematics".  This doesn't mean that carefully constructed minimalist outlines are not true, but that real life implementation always holds other aspects that are assumed to be unwritten truth. This often includes cultural expression and identity reinforcements.  

It gets a bit heated but here is the part of my recent exchange that focused on what church is:

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My Comment:  On the issue of theology and church.  The black church is in its social context a completely different thing than the white church.  It's history and witness and role is different.  This is in part why when someone suggests that in Christ there are only churches and not ethnic churches, it is a very shortsighted pronouncement that only white American's would suggest.  No Christians from other ethnic groups, nor from any other country in the world is likely to suggest such a thing.  But white American Christians, from a position of power and privilege to which they seldom really comprehend, have a tough time with this. They think colorblindness is a real virtue.   None of our ethnic brothers and sisters in Christ (aprox 90% of world Christians) see it this way.  I think it is arrogant to be ignorant and/or unconcerned about this. 

 T's Response:  you say the role of the black church is different than the role of the white church, yet where do you find any differentiation in calling of churches in Scripture?  The role of any church, is to teach the Scriptures, administer the sacraments, and oversee church discipline.  No church should be involved in any politicking for any party, but should firmly stand in and pronounce the Truth of God's Word.  Whether that be everyone's need of a Savior or the evils of abortion, that is what the church is called to do.  The methodology is what may be different, but not the role, saying otherwise goes wholly against 500 years of Reformed ecclesiology.

My Response:On the issue of the church:  Here you have suggested that a narrow reading of Reformed systematics is the only way to understand the role of the church.  This could only be suggested from within the framework of one from a culture of power.  Clearly if you read Calvin you will find a radically broader understanding of the church.  Or Kuyper.  Or Keller.  etc.... 

The black church was started because blacks were kicked out of white churches.  They serve not only the central marks you mentioned but a myriad of others, including a place of cultural expression that is largely forbidden, mocked and rejected in the wider culture.  One's church is also a reflection of one's culture and serves to reinforce cultural identity, sense of meaning, and the understanding of the world.  It goes well beyond what you've suggested whether you recognize it or not.  

And of course the church's validity is also whether or not it reflects truth, righteousness-justice, peace, deliverance both from worldly oppression and from sin (ie. the wrath of God).  Its validity is compromised if it is not a place in which believers exercise their gifts, the modest parts of the body are treated with extra grace, parents are equipped to lead their children, the community reaches out as the hands, feet and mouth of Jesus Christ.  All of these are aspects of legitimate churches that are beyond your narrow set of marks. The expression of these are very different in the black community-- one that is rooted in its history of oppression.  This cultural history shapes the church, giving it both strengths and weaknesses.  All churches reflect both the imago dei and depravity. 

While I am willing to defer to your desire not to be labeled a typical white evangelical, your description of the church makes it hard for me to see a distinction.   Perhaps the black church is too big a leap, but I would encourage you to learn from others about the value of Asian, Latino or other ethnic churches.  You will find them reflecting the grace of God in the role local body's play in ways quite different than your own. It's a beautiful (and biblical) thing.  

T's Counter: I'll be very blunt.  You are a Ruling Elder in the PCA, live up to that title, and don't throw any of this pomo garbage back at me.  When you were called and ordained, you vowed to uphold the teachings of Westminster Standards, and as such YOU are bound to a "narrow interpretation" of systematic and biblical theology and to abide within the standards laid out in the BCO.  If you find yourself in disagreement with any of these, it is your duty to report that to your session and your presbytery.  So, I caution you, don't presume to lecture me on "narrow readings" of systematics.  You signed on to a denomination that is most narrow in its interpretation of Scripture,and doesn't show any favor or liberality towards unorthodoxy. 

 

Lastly, your presuppostions, generalizations, and general prejudice towards, what you term the "white church" are disgusting, peurile, and frankly border on racism.  You pass judgements on me and my church, and yet have no basis for such conclusions, except for the fact that I, and most people who attend my church are white.  Really, you are no different than the cloak-wearing Klansmen, in that you presume the worth of an individual and his/her character based solely on the color of his/her skin. 

 

Joel, if anything, this interaction has shown me and taught me that individuals who cry for reconciliation between anything besides our reconcilation to our Creator are merely trying to push their own agenda, and are motivated by a spirit of hate, guilt, or a combination of the two.

 

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Wow.  Does anyone get this???